The new Orders system sounds awesome and powerful. I had, for a while, shunned the idea of taking Heavy Weapons Teams because of the low BS of the Guard. But the "Bring it Down!" Order sounds supremely useful, allowing a Heavy Weapons Team to act as if it's guns are all Twin-Linked. The downside? Heavy Weapons Teams have a Ld of 7, and no option to take a Vox Caster ... making this not so great, as you only get so many orders/turn. The work-around? A Commissar-Lord's Aura of Discipline, allowing any unit within 6" of him to use HIS Ld10 for morale/Ld tests (and yes, they specify that you can use it for Orders tests). You can avoid his Summary Execution by not attaching him to a squad (he is an Independent Character) and have him chill out near your Heavy Weapons Teams.
OK, on to my dilemma:
I'm looking to collect and build an IG army, but I've become confused as to how to model the armour. Power Armour aside (I don't know why they listed and explained it, I can't find anyone in the list who can even take it), the two armour types are Flak and Carapace. I'm mainly looking to collect Cadian minis as I like the look and style, so follow along with me while I go through this and please let me know what you think.
Here's a pic from GW's site that are your standard Cadian troopers:
Normal Infantry wear Flak armour. ...so what the hell is this?:
Is that ALSO Flak armour? Does the chest-plate mean NOTHING?Lord Creed and Sergeant Kell are both listed as having Carapace armour:
Now in Kell's instance, I can see a clear difference in the amount of armour he's wearing compared to the normal troopers ... but Creed? He looks like he's wearing the exact same armour as a normal trooper! So what's the carapace armour? I'm inclined to go with Kell's suit, as the Kasrkin models wear similar, and Storm Troopers also wear carapace:
I'm at such a loss as to how to actually distinguish carapace armour from Flak that I'm almost convinced NOT to collect Cadians, and go with another set ... like Steel Legion or Death Corps of Krieg. They all LOOK like they're wearing flak jackets, and I could easily use a Cadian torso to represent carapace...But that leads me to other problems. Death Corps of Krieg are expensive. Far too expensive for a horde army, in my opinion. Steel Legion has a miserable line of minis that are all in pewter! The artwork in the book for them is amazing, but the minis look terrible... like Valhallan-terrible. And pewter is notoriously difficult for conversions. Crap, if they released enough torsos and arms of the second picture, I could see something to work with on Cadians, but the whole chest guard = no chest guard is strange to me.
What do you guys all think?
You're just going to accept the fact that the armour on the model doesn't relate to the armour save in the new codex.
ReplyDeletePutting the examples you've put on your blog, all Catachans now count as having flak armour (5+) and they're modelled with t-shirts and vests.
I just imagine the catachan's are Para's, armour issue resolved.
I agree, it slightly confusing, but if I'm not mistaken flak vs. carapace isn't about the armour plating to body coverage ratio. It's more the materials that each are constructed from.
ReplyDeleteArmour descriptions don't mention coverage, just a blurb about materials, carapace is good stuff, flak ain't. They've also got power armour in their, but that's just for the tech priest.
ReplyDeleteIt's just broken, you can't justify a broken codex, it's just broken with regards to the stat line and the model.
Problem is that flak looks like cloth...
ReplyDeleteThat said I would believe the guy in the second picture is wearing actual flak armour all over.
The squad in the first pic are wearing cloth with a carapace chest piece and helmet, which is apparently about equal to a full flak jacket (what with it offering no limb protection).
Creed, well I would have said he's wearing full carapace. He's got the arm guards, the boots, and the chest. Hell, if he's armoured up like you would do in dark heresy then the jacket will be flak lined too!
Just my two pennies worth though...
I'd try not to stress too much about it. Remember, you'd be setting units of 10+ guys at a time down. If there is any confusion, I'd tell your opponent to keep in mind, 'unit X has such and such armor'. I like the look of the regular old Cadians, but I agree that they are not always clear on what armor they are wearing by looking at them.
ReplyDeleteI'll have to have a look at the Tech priest Col Corbane mentioned. I too was wondering why the power armor entry was in the book!
@Col. Corbane: I hate having to accept that the armour on the model doesn't relate to the armour save in the codex. I would prefer to find a way to model them appropriately. Yeah, the Catachans also have flak, yet vests and bare chests ... I thought Cadians were confusing enough without bringing them into it ;)
ReplyDelete@Oni: I understand the materials constructed from, but the chest plates of the normal infantry do not look like the same material as Flak, nor of the same material as the sergeants. I see two different armours, yet the codex says only one.
@James: I would agree that the second pic looks like all Flak to me. I can kinda follow your second statement that a chest guard is equivalent to a full Flak jacket...
but Creed? He's wearing the same boots as normal infantry, certainly not like the Kasrkin or Kell. They have knee guards, and thigh guards. ...as far as the gloves, check these out. Normal infantry Special weapons carriers have hand gauntlets too, yet still "flak."
@Innergeek: I just looked, Corbane's right; the Techpriest is indeed equipped with Power Armour. Didn't see that the first time through.
ReplyDeleteIt's so he can carry the servo arm and he's not guard, he's Adaptus Mech, so there's no way in hell he's going to be in flak.
ReplyDeleteShame really as I wanted a guard version, bloke with a spanner, you get the idea. I'm still going to try to model mine that way anyway.
The armour values differ greatly alright but I suppose, as people say, it's easier than having different saves for Valhallans, Catachans, Cadians, Steel Legion etc etc etc.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to model carapace I'd reccommend the Cadians (well your only other plastic option are Baby Ogryns after all!) and green stuff armour plates on the knees and shins, forearms etc. They don't need to be as all-covering as on the Karskin models but if you paint the carapace a distinctly different colour from the vests and pants it will stand out and look like he's wearing proper body armour.
Looking forward to seeing your work!
You could always try and go for a heavy mechanized force. That way you wouldn't have to necessarily do a ton of conversion for your infantry models, since infantry wouldn't be the core of your list.
ReplyDeleteJust a thought, though.
The chest plate thing on the officer with the coat is his refractor field, as explained in the old guard codex.
ReplyDelete@Kron: Thanks for the vote of confidence, I hope I come up with something you all like.
ReplyDelete@pkracken: It's a good thought, I'll have to consider it. There's a lot of appeal to a tread-head style army ;)
@Falk: I was referring to the officer's lack of a torso-chest guard. The jacket he's wearing looks to me like what flak armour should be... but the other models that share the same "armour" have sometimes significantly more protection than just a flak jacket. ...like the Cadian Trooper's green colored chest-guards, helmets and shoulders. It looks like a different class of armour than what the officer is wearing. And then there's the Kasrkin/Kell models that show significantly more armour than the standard troopers. I really see 3 different levels of armour-value here, but the Codex only uses 2 ... I'm just trying to reconcile the differences between the Codex and the model-lines so I can construct an army that is very clear to my opponent on who has what. I'm kinda OCD about keeping my stuff WYSIWYG. ;P
I just imagined that the guy with the trench coat has his chest plate underneath. He's dressed exactly the same as the normal troopers, just with a jacket buttoned up.
ReplyDeleteCreed would look similar if his jacket wasn't up on his shoulders. Also, you could imagine that Creed's jacket is armoured somehow to make up for his lack of armour plates.
Maybe?
@Simon: both explanations are possible.
ReplyDelete...still wish they had a plastic Steel Legion set, though ;)
For a great many armies I have always just gone with the whole thought that the save value and the amount of armor worn are related, but not directly equivalent. A lot of a troop's/character's save is just due to blind luck. So, obviously Catachan guardsmen are some very lucky suckers, with Ironhand Stracken really needing to hit Vegas soon...
ReplyDeleteIt's more an issue of how often you think you'll bother with Carapace armor.
ReplyDeleteOnly guy with Power Armor is the Tech Priest, and he's not exactly what we call effective. Neat and fluffy, but not effective.
As-is, the carapace armor comes on...
Storm Troopers
Vets (IF you fork over for it)
Personally, I find Stormtroopers a little 'eh.' Hotshot Lasguns still have to WOUND and lots of folks have cover saves...unless you're going to use their missions? Don't bother.
Vets? I see the big 'building block' for them being vets, 3 meltaguns, and a chimera with multi-laser/heavy flamer. 155 for that, take 2-3 for an advance, and it's pretty tidy.
As for orders...
I'm not terribly sold on the heavy weapon teams, mostly for the fragility. I'd think about two regular platoons with heavy weapons since it's more order-efficient.
I've brawled with the new guard a bit, and the orders...well, with Vox Casters it won't be bad, but I'm really only seeing two being that great.
1) BRING IT DOWN! Twin-linking helps, but as you've pointed out the issue is getting it useful. Unless you take the vulnerable heavy weapon teams (Hey, you took an S6 wound...and failed the 4+ save. So long, big gun)
2) MOVE! MOVE! MOVE!
Mostly for claiming objectives...
3ish) First rank, second rank
It's a stop-gap at best. Vs. the average T4 target, each shot a guard can get from the lasgun gets 0.16 wounds. So, one squad (with a heavy) can rapid-fire out 2 pistol shots, and 18 regular shots for 20 shots and a total of...3.332 wounds on average.
S3, AP- doesn't do a lot.
I do hear you on the armor issue and the cost of guard. I would LOVE to do Krieg, except it's Forge world and now's not the time for a mortgage. Even the metal squads (Valhallans and STeel Legion) are pricy, and that's not counting the heavy weapons.
I figure at minimum a mech guard army's looking at about 60 guardsmen (3 vet squads, an infantry platoon minimum, and command squad). Six packs of Cadians is a lot easier to stomach than six packs of Valhallns...or Krieg.
I should have you reported to the Commissariate and shot on site for spreading heresies about the Guard's most efficient equipment ;)
ReplyDeleteRegardless of factual representation, one has to simplify the big diversity of IG regiments. Catachans looks like tough ramboes, while Cadian Shock Troopers are closer to Marines than their fellow guardsmen. Anyway, they are still IG, they rock, and they look cool.
BTW, I miss A LOT your superb cartoons...
If you are looking at modelling carapace armour on mass, why not look at combining Warhammer models like pistolliers? The armours slightly arcane but is easily supportable fluff wise.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, I'd simply wait for the plastic stormtroopers...
With Guard armour it's more about the armour averaging out across the whole army - Carapace is ok, but camo cloaks is more fun and easier to do!
In the last codex, upgrading to 'jungle fighters' reduce the saving throw to 6+ - no-one ever took it as 5+ is pretty poor to start with...
Guard are all about cover and stuff.
On the Heavy weapon team - this seems like a great reason to have Kell in the army (even without Creed) - he can export all the orders at the commanders Ld instead of the receiving units using his 'listen up maggots' skill.
You'll also get a reroll thanks to his regimental standard - job done.
This is what I did for Carapace armor for my Company Command squad. I used Space Marine arms. No shoulder pads, just the basic arm. It has the little "pad" at the top which matches the Cadian shoulder pad nicely. I also used the "vox" head for all the members of the squad. They look nice and bulky, and since I paint the armor plates one color, and the cloth (on the legs) another, the look of extra armor carries through. I will be making "Grenadier" Veterans, and will use this method again. Another method would be to use Space Marine Scouts, or just their arms. The new Scouts come with bolter and shotgun arms in addition to their bolt pistol/CCW arms, giving you some nice heavy arms for not too much strain on the wallet. Since only a few units can have Carapace, it shouldn't be so bad.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you toa point. You could look to modern bullet proof vest as an example though. Kevlar body armour has like 4 different grades. The highest grade offers the highest protection But to an untrained eye they all look the same. So i would argue that creed is wearing grade 1 armour and the trooper is giving grade 3 armour. This might just be silly arguments. Do you buy it?
ReplyDelete@DB Susashi: The Space Marine arms is a fantastic idea! Even moreso, the scout arms with shotguns, as that's what I'd want to equip a grenadier vet squad with anyways. Seriously brilliant idea, thanks for sharing it.
ReplyDelete@Anon: I kinda do. I think I would want to greenstuff some knee-pads on him just to further drive it home that he's got some serious armour on.
Well flak armour is just a sheet of metal over your chest. Its said so in some of the IMG books from the Black
ReplyDeleteLibrary. Carapace armour is like samurai armour, more or less... so really if you dont see it doesent really mean its not there.
but I could be wrong lol.....
@TheDarkHeir: I think you may have just solved my issue with the Cadian torso vs the sergeant's cloth-y torso. You rule. :)
ReplyDeleteI see what you mean here and funnily enough I was thinking this myself when I saw a few of the new models in White Dwarf this month. I always considered Games Workshop to promote a 'WYSIWYG' environment, but it seems they are going more for the appearance and physical draws to a model these days rather than the actual descirptions! Ah well sex sells and all that...
ReplyDeleteYou could always use Cadians for flak armour, and forge world Elysians for carapace armour. They look pretty mechy too so they'd fit in well, but they look very distuingishable.
ReplyDeletei just like to imagine models with with a 4+ save that arnt actually wearing and armour as having a natural instict and just naturaly tough and hard to bring down....
ReplyDelete